swapped army/navy moves

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swapped army/navy moves

Postby dizt3mp3r » 29 Jun 2012, 01:31

I am just experimenting with the new version of Coconet 1.0 and am very impressed especially with the new map.

Is there a way to revert the navy/army move and build order?

The previous versions all have the navy/army moves transposed to what it is in the new version. Now I keep moving navies instead of armies and it seems counter-intuitive to someone who has played the game with the order different for so many years...

Worse than this though, I keep building huge fleets instead of armies as the order of building armies/navies is also transposed.

I now have to save regularly as I am continuously making major mistakes. I have had to abandon three games now as I keep building completely the wrong army/navy mix.

Why has the order changed, can it be configured back to normal operation?
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Re: swapped army/navy moves

Postby Kroah » 29 Jun 2012, 02:45

Well, we did this to keep everything homogeneous.

Here's the short story:
1) The move army/navy window did show the army buttons first, then the navy buttons.
But to fill the boats with army, we need to add the boats first. This means clicking on the second button line to add the navy, then on the first button line for the army.
That was really awkward. So we swapped the army/navy in this window.
2) Then on the build army/navy window, we expected having the same order than the move window. So we swapped it too.

I understand this may bother you at first. Especially for hardcore players of Colonial Conquest (like you and me).
But we felt this more natural after some hours of gameplay and more logical: first move the boats, then add the army to them.

Imho, everyone should try this a few days, then give their feeling about this behaviour.

dizt3mp3r wrote:Is there a way to revert the navy/army move and build order?
Not actually, we may add an option somewhere if it's really needed.

dizt3mp3r wrote:I now have to save regularly as I am continuously making major mistakes. I have had to abandon three games now as I keep building completely the wrong army/navy mix.
You should not have to save manually for this.
CoCoNet automatically saves the game at the beginning of each turn on "AutoSave.ccn". On top of that, it backups the previous one to "AutoSave.bak".
Its handy to reload the game if it crashes for example.
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Re: swapped army/navy moves

Postby Christine » 29 Jun 2012, 11:26

I understand your idea but ... even if I get used to it is where another difficulty:
I think the army movment is the most used function. But it is at the 2. place in the menu so it is a little more boring to click to the flag, go 20 pixels down and then click "alternative movement" instread of clicking directley. Its really like Im going to split hairs, but thats just and counter-argument for swapping the options.

what ever...we will see the next days if we could handle it. I think it could be a problem for a grandma and grandpa players community... am I really THAT old? arghhhh!
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Re: swapped army/navy moves

Postby dizt3mp3r » 02 Jul 2012, 03:30

It isn't a matter of Grandpa players, when a stable interface changes then it is almost always annoying to the dedicated user so it is always wise to keep a config. option that allows previous functionality to remain. See all the problems with Firefox changes to button and tab positions. If it is possible to allow a setting to revert then I for one would welcome it.

If we are going to have changes to the manner in which we select armies/navies then I would far prefer to have my next wish granted, my next wish would be for the marvellous ALL button, at the moment Coconet causes RSI on my wrist even with the CTRL button pressed there are still too many mouse clicks required during a game. Please, please give me a button that reduces the amount of mouse clicks I have to do. The Move ALL button.

Version 1.0 has no bugs that I am aware of.

The AI seems better and is occasionally surprising me,though I'd love a guide in this area if scripting is required to enhance it. A helper...
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Re: swapped army/navy moves

Postby Kroah » 02 Jul 2012, 05:37

dizt3mp3r wrote:It isn't a matter of Grandpa players, when a stable interface changes then it is almost always annoying to the dedicated user so it is always wise to keep a config. option that allows previous functionality to remain. See all the problems with Firefox changes to button and tab positions. If it is possible to allow a setting to revert then I for one would welcome it.

I really didn't have any problem with the army/navy swap and i did not thought that was a breaking change.
Anyway, i understand your point of view (and some other members), I'm working on it to find away to resolve it.

dizt3mp3r wrote:[...]my next wish would be for the marvellous ALL button, at the moment Coconet causes RSI on my wrist even with the CTRL button pressed there are still too many mouse clicks required during a game.

Do you mean sending all the army or navy in 1 click in the move window?
FYI, you can transfer army/navy by an amount of 1.000, 10.000, 100.000 and 1.000.000 by using the left or right mouse button on "<<" and "<". And you can keep the button pressed.
What is CTRL used for ?

dizt3mp3r wrote:The AI seems better and is occasionally surprising me,though I'd love a guide in this area if scripting is required to enhance it. A helper...

"Scripting" with C# can be used to create a full AI. The file is compiled on the fly.
But there's no ingame debugger => you need a full installation of Visual Studio with XNA and the source code, or it will be a nightmare.
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Re: swapped army/navy moves

Postby cr1x » 02 Jul 2012, 12:18

For what it is worth, and I accept it is a matter of personal opinion and to some extent what you are use to, I actually found the new layout quite intuitive and I got use to it quite quickly.

Just my view. :?
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Re: swapped army/navy moves

Postby Christine » 02 Jul 2012, 16:05

I have some more probs with that. Im still moving my navys instead of my armys and so on.. but whatever, we have discussed that.

dizt3mp3r wrote:Please, please give me a button that reduces the amount of mouse clicks I have to do. The Move ALL button.

Great idea. My ideas are going in 2 ways for that:
a) a little button for "move all armys/navys to the selected country (in the normal move-units-window)
because: if moving more than 10 Million armys/navys it takes a long time for moving.

b) a right-click-menu option for: "send all navys to _that_ location"
its usfull from the beginning of the game: I use my navies often to send reinforcments to my colonys. And I split my navys to 5 or more fleets to get it faster done. A "move all my fleets to london" would be a really nice right-click-menu-option! ;)
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Re: swapped army/navy moves

Postby cr1x » 02 Jul 2012, 16:49

I agree that at times it does feel like there is an enormous amount of clicking going on and having played 'Empires: World Conquest' I can see that it can be streamlined; however, do remember that large movements of armies and navies can be transferred quickly by simply tapping both mouse buttons together.

For me a big improvement (not sure if this possible) would be to eliminate the need to have to specify whether you want to 'Move army' or 'move navy' before going on to the army/navy movement screen, I assume this is just the way the game has been programmed. It seems to me that in a perfect world, the game should not need to ask this question at all. Does anyone agree with this?
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Re: swapped army/navy moves

Postby Kroah » 02 Jul 2012, 22:28

cr1x wrote:I agree that at times it does feel like there is an enormous amount of clicking going on and having played 'Empires: World Conquest' I can see that it can be streamlined; however, do remember that large movements of armies and navies can be transferred quickly by simply tapping both mouse buttons together.

I try to understand, but I really don't see how you can feel that "there is an enormous amount of clicking going on".

Even after 300 turns, it keeps me only few clicks to move all my army/navy for a turn, reinforcements included.
choose src, choose dst, move type, amount, ok = 5 clicks for each move.
I have tried some ways to remove the "move type" click, but that was a major change.

For the "move all" button, i really don't understand the problem. It takes me less than 1 second to move 10 millions army/navy in 1 click (2 if both army+navy).
Please, give more info about the origin of your problem, i don't see where it happens.

cr1x wrote:For me a big improvement (not sure if this possible) would be to eliminate the need to have to specify whether you want to 'Move army' or 'move navy' before going on to the army/navy movement screen, I assume this is just the way the game has been programmed. It seems to me that in a perfect world, the game should not need to ask this question at all. Does anyone agree with this?

We already tried to remove this step. But that wasn't practical.

If you don't specify the move type, the move window needs to know if you want to send army or navy with army.
How the window should behave if you add some army (= army move) then add some boats: set the army back to 0 ? disable the navy line if you first add some army ?

This change is important, and you see how the community reacts for a minor change like the army/navy swap.
How the community will receive this new behaviour ?
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Re: swapped army/navy moves

Postby Kroah » 02 Jul 2012, 22:30

Christine wrote:if moving more than 10 Million armys/navys it takes a long time for moving.

No, it takes less than 1 second to move 10 millions army/navy.
Just tried and it works with this:
Kroah wrote:you can transfer army/navy by an amount of 1.000, 10.000, 100.000 and 1.000.000 by using the left or right mouse button on "<<" and "<". And you can keep the button pressed.

Please, explain me why it takes you so long to move 10 millions army/navy.
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Re: swapped army/navy moves

Postby cr1x » 03 Jul 2012, 14:48

Please don't take offense at any of my comments/suggestions. I think in a game of this type, when you are controlling 40 or 50 different countries and moving armies and navies backwards and forwards there is bound to be a lot of clicking; it is all part of the game as far as I am concerned. :D

I think you have done an amazing job and the game plays brilliantly just as it is. Any comments I make are just to encourage discussion.

Cheers
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Re: swapped army/navy moves

Postby Kroah » 03 Jul 2012, 20:18

cr1x wrote:Please don't take offense at any of my comments/suggestions.

I didn't wanted to be rude. But i really don't understand some points, so i try to clarify them.

My questions are still valid, i'll be glad to have an explanation because i may be mistaken or miss something, i may play a different way of yours too (everyone can answer them, they are not directly intended to you):

- does the "enormous amount of clicking" come mainly from the moves ? (~6 clicks per move)
- Is the mentionned "move all" button in the move window not the same thing as clicking on "<<" with the right mouse button for 1 second ?
- quoting Christine "if moving more than 10 Million armys/navys it takes a long time for moving." : even by right clicking the "<<" button ? it takes me 1 second with my machine. Do you think there is a bug or 1 second is already too much ?
- "a right-click-menu option for: "send all navys to _that_ location"": nice idea, i will have a look.
- do you have a video, or can you explain me how "Empires: World Conquest" resolves the problem of "too much clicks" ?

Do you (read here: everyone) have an opinion about "eliminating the need to have to specify whether you want to 'Move army' or 'move navy' before going on to the army/navy movement screen" and my quote below ?
I want to remove this step, but can't find a good way to do it.
If you don't specify the move type, the move window needs to know if you want to send army or navy with army.
How the window should behave if you add some army then add some boats: set the army back to 0 ? disable the navy line if you first add some army ?
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Re: swapped army/navy moves

Postby Christine » 04 Jul 2012, 00:55

Kroah wrote:- Is the mentionned "move all" button in the move window not the same thing as clicking on "<<" with the right mouse button for 1 second ?
- quoting Christine "if moving more than 10 Million armys/navys it takes a long time for moving." : even by right clicking the "<<" button ? it takes me 1 second with my machine. Do you think there is a bug or 1 second is already too much ?

No it is not. I dont know what youre machine moves, but Iam moving on my machine:
left click on < = 1.000
right click on < = 10.000
left click on << = 100.000
right click on << = 1.000.000 = 1 Million, not 10.

In the end phase of the game I get a bit irritaed of moving 30 millions or more armay/navys at once to conquer for example the japanese mainland.
It does not take a really long time, but moving 30 MIO armys takes 30 clicks or maybe 5-10 secounds (and a little bit more to ship the armys with the navy).

In that case a "move all" or a 10 MIO button (lets call it "<<<") could be usefull.


Kroah wrote:Do you (read here: everyone) have an opinion about "eliminating the need to have to specify whether you want to 'Move army' or 'move navy' before going on to the army/navy movement screen" and my quote below ?
I want to remove this step, but can't find a good way to do it.

I've got the same problem in my php/js ColConq remake (I believe that I have to stop developing on it cause the browser-interface is just to slow to read-in maps greater then 100x100 pixels in the way I wanted to do it)....
But I tried this:
if clicking a land directly connected to the from-land, you are using the army to move. But a [x]-button enables the "move by navy"-option
if clicking a land that is NOT connected to the from-land, you have no other way as sending the army via navy

In both cases the interface does not really change: you still have the "move navy" and "move army" buttons. But in the first case, the "move navy" without the "[x] move by navy" could be used for "send the army by land and the navy seperate by sea".

If this not covers the option you want to use, you can use "move navy" option seperatly (but why it is usefull to send some navys with armys uppon and the rest of the army seperate to a specific land?)

But it could be a little bit tricky for new users to get the idea....
Besides, I really like the origininal Colonial Conquest look and feel with your cool enhancements. I really dont want an other interface unless it is SO COOL and easy to understand as your "moving arrows". :)
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Re: swapped army/navy moves

Postby Kroah » 04 Jul 2012, 01:39

Christine wrote:It does not take a really long time, but moving 30 MIO armys takes 30 clicks or maybe 5-10 secounds (and a little bit more to ship the armys with the navy).

Well, i understand better. Most of my games don't go over 5.000.000 men for my main strength with around 1.000.000 boats.
In your case, i see why it takes more than 1 second.

But you say "moving 30 MIO armys takes 30 clicks" => do you know you can let the right (or left) mouse button pressed ? It still takes 4 seconds (just tested it), but you click only 1 time.
Anyway, even if i don't think having a main strength of so much men is common mid-game, a "move all" button may be a way to bypass those 4 remaining seconds.

Christine wrote:In both cases the interface does not really change: you still have the "move navy" and "move army" buttons. But in the first case, the "move navy" without the "[x] move by navy" could be used for "send the army by land and the navy seperate by sea".

Thanks for this idea.
I actually try the "gray out the navy move if some army have been added before the boats" and it feels ok.

Thanks for all your suggestions.
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Re: swapped army/navy moves

Postby Christine » 04 Jul 2012, 16:22

Kroah wrote:Well, i understand better. Most of my games don't go over 5.000.000 men for my main strength with around 1.000.000 boats.
In your case, i see why it takes more than 1 second.

But you say "moving 30 MIO armys takes 30 clicks" => do you know you can let the right (or left) mouse button pressed ? It still takes 4 seconds (just tested it), but you click only 1 time.
Anyway, even if i don't think having a main strength of so much men is common mid-game, a "move all" button may be a way to bypass those 4 remaining seconds.

Eerm.. I know that I can let the mouse buttons pressed. 30 clicks was just an answer to your "1 click". But it dont takes 4 secounds to carry your troops by navy.
With the right mosuebutton and the "<<" button, you are sending 1.000 ships per click.
While mousebutton pressed, it takes some more time then 4 seconds to ship 30.000.000 men.

if just tested it with 10 million troops and 10.000 ships:
10.000.000 troops = 10 clicks = ~4 secs
10.000 ships = 10 clicks = ~4 secs
----
8 sec just holding the "move button" (yes, right button pressed down).

in the endpahse, then I have to move 30 mio troops, it is a little bit boring to ship so much troops at once. Especially cause I know that you have won the game.
But if my ~4 secounds werent right, let it be 3 secs, to move all thouse troops you will need 3x3x2=18 seconds to move then.
Then, you realise that your 30 MIO troops werent enogh to conquer england (or japan). In that case you'll have to wait some more years to send thouse troops again. Last time I tried it 4 times. This 10 minutes were just boring, but I really like it to end thouse games with a total victory.

maybe you can change this by altering the AI:
The main problem is that the AI of japan, england ans USA hold there main troops back on there islands/continent.
For example:
the USA can try to roll over the land and they are just doing it. But they just stop then they conquered america. The 10 MIO troops (or maybe more) just waiting in some country uppon the american continent... sometimes in chile, uruguay, but often (if you havnt attackt south america) in alaska (really often!) or maybe quebec.
What are they searching for in alaska? Are they fishing? :)
If the AI could start to use thouse troops, the gameplay would be more intresting. The island-AI could not wait and see how a player (or an other AI) is conquering there islands and oversea provinces. They would just attack.
An other factor could be:
the AI ships up to 3 MIO troops to attack a country. For example:
russia counquered the afri-europ-asia continent and the usa the american.
Why does the AI attacks nigeria with 3 MIO troops, just to ship them back to (alaksa? the mainland?) after conquering nigeria?
Maybe thats the problem: why they dont try to roll over africa?

If this logical bug (the original CC have had it in perfection! - the bug ;)) is fixed, the AI would be really challanging. Especially on level 9. And in this case, the need for the "move all button" is gone.



Kroah wrote:Thanks for this idea.
I actually try the "gray out the navy move if some army have been added before the boats" and it feels ok.

Thanks for all your suggestions.

Oh, good! I think I will like it more this way. ;)
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